Mourinho...how long will he be given?

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by remembercolinlee, Jan 1, 2020.

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How long will he be given?

  1. Til we go out of the CL?

    1 vote(s)
    4.5%
  2. Til the end of the season?

    5 vote(s)
    22.7%
  3. Til next Oct/Nov?

    11 vote(s)
    50.0%
  4. Will be a success so irrelevant?

    5 vote(s)
    22.7%
  1. Spurf

    Spurf Smile!
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    Watching Bruno Fernandes for a couple of games at United his class is obvious almost immediately, He will make a huge impact for United. This is exactly the sort of player we have needed for YEARS and if we missed out because of a few million then that is criminal and will cost Spurs way beyond his potential signing fee. Now I don't know the true circumstances of how we missed signing this player but if it's our fault then that would seriously make me consider joining the anti Levy camp. I can't believe he was so much less than Pogba.
     
    #361
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  2. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I am not that nice a person but ...
    1. At 18 I was working hard to pay the rent and bills, working two part time jobs plus doing voluntary work to get experience in the social work/ special education field so I could build a career.
    2. I had tired, bored and out of touch ****ers desperately trying to belittle me as I sometimes made them look out of touch with my work practices.
    3. There was massive bigotry about black/mixed raced men wanting to work with kids which I had to deal with.
    4. Everyone was older than me by at least 5 or 6 years but usually by 10 years so was patronised to ****...every single day.

    I know this ain't about me but millions of us have very similar experiences...If parrott is being treated badly (and I mean IF) then imo he would not have signed a new long term contract.
    I have not read anything bad about him said by anyone in the club...I have only read constructive criticism and tbh if you can not handle that you will never succeed in life.
    In my opinion, him signing a contract says thst he wants to stay so he should do what millions of us did as youngsters snd what millions of youngsters have done since and work hard...take pride in what you do, learn from those around you but most of all he should be grateful that he is not in the position of a lot of people who are equally talented in their fields who face pay cuts, redundancies increased hours etc.

    I am not saying it is ok to treat footballers in a ****ty manner cos they are well paid btw.
    If Jose was treating players like the home secretary is accused of treating people I would back the players 100% but I do not see either bullying or unfair criticism
     
    #362
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
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  3. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah compared to the real world, it’s not harsh at all. I just mean in the football bubble it seems a harsh way to treat a youngster especially with the modern game and how pampered players are.
     
    #363
  4. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't meant as a dig at you btw...just kind of does my head in.
    They are treated far better than 18 yr olds working fulltime or working their way through uni!
     
    #364
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  5. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard it's SPURS

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    RCL is right in that we've conceded 2 or more goals in a large number of games but it was similar under Pochettino.

    In 7 of Poch's 17 we conceded 2 or more.
    In 11 of Jose's 23 we've conceded 2 or more.

    Both managers have struggled with the defence. Under Jose, 74% of the goals we've conceded have come from individual errors or set pieces, I'm not sure of the % under Poch but wouldn't be surprised if it were similar as I've been calling out Toby's **** ups since the start of the season whilst Hugo's brainfarts vs Southampton and Brighton come to mind.

    We came into this season with Aurier as first choice RB, a transfer-listed Rose was playing at LB for the first 9 out of 10 games, Davies was injured and since can't get back to his best since returning from injury, Toby and Jan are finished (which has somewhat surprised me personally how bad they've been), Lloris has his clangers in-between spells of brilliance whilst Gazzaniga hasn't shown the levels he reached last season. Not forgetting we have no valid DM other than a young Oli Skipp (who neither manager has given a chance too which is frustrating) as both Wanyama and Dier are useless whilst Sissoko and Captain Crab will work hard but have poor defensive attributes.

    I'm not sure either manager can realistically be blamed for such stupidity from senior pros or for having such a poor defensive record because the choice of defensive options we currently have is abysmal. The only blame I can say is that Poch/ Levy should've focused on the defence during the summer as much as they did on the creative CMs and Jose/ Levy should've focused on the defence in January. Other than that, we're just left with **** choices all over at the back with the exception of Dave Sanchez and Tanganga and even those two have had their moments.

    I appreciate Jose has a reputation of being a defensive manager so it may look worse for him than Poch but if he could get Utd looking solid with Jones and Smalling at the back, I think it tells you how far our defence have fallen when even he is struggling to make ours look a cohesive unit.

    We certainly need to overhaul this defence over the summer, Levy better not **** this up.
     
    #365
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  6. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree on Jan and Toby. A year ago Jan was ripping up a CL game playing as an overlapping left back and now he looks like he has no pace and no confidence. Toby the same. Perhaps Poch saw this coming which is why they were allowed to run down their contracts? But they shouldn't be past it at their ages.
     
    #366
  7. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    But I still disagree on Winks. He has a lot of positional sense and breaks up a lot of attacks but he has had no-one to help in that. Ndombele has made a lot of mistakes when he has played, Sissoko is usually covering Aurier. Lo Celso is too attacking. What we need us two lots of Winks.....or Winks and Skipp.
     
    #367
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  8. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I think we needed Eriksen's transfer fee and his space in the squad to afford Fernandes. But you're judging him a bit soon.....
     
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  9. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe for a second that there aren't problems but we sacked Poch and rightly so. We've got to stop considering things in terms of his last 12 months, when his head and heart had gone. I'm expecting much more from his replacement, not anything like the same.

    If there are problems, then lead from the front to extract the best from your players, win or lose. I'm not seeing a whole lot of that. Mourinho's press conferences are now all about what a tough job he's got. I'm expecting him to get this violinist in to accompany him as he mourns the loss of all his strikers...



    On mistakes, players make mistakes for many reasons. Very often it's a lack of confidence or fitness, or as a result of continued pressure,or playing in an unfamiliar position, or possibly lack of options leading to poor decision making or technique. It's unrealistic to think that all mistakes are just random personal failings that shouldn't arise. Currently, we look as shaky as ****, as soon as we're under pressure because the team's all over the place in selection and tactics and confidence.

    However, even when Mourinho had Kane and Sonny fit, we were still conceding 2 goals regularly. We got some results by scoring 3, mostly against teams from the lower reaches. That couldn't go on succeeding against better sides, even with our first choice strikers.

    Mourinho had a fit Foyth available to him until his recent 'injury'. He's refused to play him at right back, as he's refused to play Skippy, rested Sanchez unnecessarily, and excessively delayed selecting Tanganga. He's played Aurier as a winger and no right back and had Eric Dier try to cover the hole. Tanganga's next game might be up front, as it's the only position he hasn't played yet.

    Skipp's the only fit specialist in that position at the club, There can be no acceptable reason for not selecting him...I presume it's because he might do pretty well and Levy won't then spend £30m+ on a new shiny player in the summer. If he struggles, it won't kill him but leaving him on the bench will do. He has to play tomorrow night, even if it has to be off the bench.

    We switch formations and personnel from game to game and make substitutions way too late - all late era Poch traits but we've employed Mourinho to be better. He needs to settle on a formation that will start to limit the number of chances and goals we concede and try to stick to it, so that we can go into games with a chance of winning them. Then we might seem less fragile and build some confidence because currently, we look shot again.
     
    #369
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  10. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard it's SPURS

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    Perhaps he did though it makes it somewhat bemusing that we never targeted a CB in the summer then. Or why Levy didn’t just accept Roma’s offer for Toby, even if it was derisory and below his release clause, better to rid of a poor player for a fee than keep them, he’d have probably faced initial fan backlash for it but if we had the power of hindsight it would’ve been completely the right decision. Also odd that barring the Colchester game, Poch never gave Tanganga any more game time because despite a few moments where his inexperience has showed, he’s generally performed more admirably than the two Belgians.

    Either way we need to face the issue this summer, Jan will be gone anyway and I’d love for us to sell Toby although I doubt it’ll happen as he’s managed to blag himself a nice new contract here that other clubs probably won’t want to match/ better. One or two CBs really are a must though.

    We absolutely do not need two Winks lol. Whilst I’d say Winks and Skipp would be a horrendous duo as there’d be zero outlet in terms of getting the ball forward.

    Whether Jose chooses to go 433 or 4231, we need specialist midfielders and Winks doesn’t have a USP. If we go with a two then Lo Celso would need a true defensive mid, Skipp is probably our best bet for that although he isn’t getting a look-in. In a midfield three then Lo Celso and Ndombele (when he isn’t out of breath) would be tasked with controlling the midfield and then a defensive mid would need to cover them.

    Winks can play his part in certain areas but he really isn’t someone Spurs should be looking at as a first choice player, he just simply isn’t good enough. I wish the rest of the team would have his attitude and work rate though, we’d be far better off if they did.
     
    #370
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020

  11. Spurf

    Spurf Smile!
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    I am judging him VERY soon, you are right, and that's because I think he's that good. I don't normally rush to judgement but I think he looks like a player of such quality that you rarely see it. Time will tell if I am right or wrong but right now I think he will be one of the best midfielders of the generation.
     
    #371
  12. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard it's SPURS

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    You and I have every right to expect more from Jose but for that to happen I think he needs his own players.

    Out scoring the opposition probably was our best bet because the defence really is that bad.

    I like Foyth but I won’t pretend I’m too peeved he isn’t playing. He’s been usurped by Tanganga both at CB and RB who looks a lot more developed despite having less experience. A few chances for Foyth at RB wouldn’t have hurt but I don’t think he would’ve made too much of a difference to a poor backline when he’s hardly a solid defender himself just yet.

    Skipp on the other hand is the one player who I think is getting a raw deal, made worse that Jose has spoken so highly of him yet continues to not select him. Lo Celso would probably benefit from having a legitimate DM alongside him because in theory it’d give him licence and freedom to create.

    We've looked shaky at the back all season and the mistakes have long been occurring before Jose’s arrival. He hasn’t been able to fix these issues but deep down I don’t think fans think they’re fixable as otherwise there wouldn’t be such a demand for a new defence this summer. I think he’s tried various personnel and formations to try and find a solution but ultimately our defence just can’t stop conceding regardless of who plays or how we set up, he’s damned either way on that until the summer. It’s also tough to settle on a formation when players he probably thought he could build his team around (Alli, Dier, Davies, Toby) have been dreadful whilst others who may have given him alternative ideas can’t stop getting injuries (Lamela, Ndombele plus Sissoko).
     
    #372
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  13. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    The defence is definitely an issue. It's creaking all over the place. Given that, I'd prefer to see players selected who have positional discipline, especially when we're likely to be up against a team in better form. We need to be tighter as a unit to try to cover for individual issues of form and fitness.

    I see Mourinho's continued selection of Aurier and insistence on playing Dier in midfield (ahead of Skipp) as completely baffling. They leave holes in the team, that we're asking others to compensate for, when they're not doing their own jobs to any great standard. Playing Aurier when we had Sissoko's athleticism to cover for him was one thing. Without Sissoko, there's even more strain on the right centre back and whoever is playing central midfield. Our central defenders aren't coping with it, no matter who we pick.

    I can't see that flip/flopping from back 4 to a 3 is going to help either. It's adding an extra element of uncertainty into the mix.

    Personally, I think that any chance of CL football died when Kane got injured. We're fighting to be in the EL and I'm don't think that we'll do that...and that's not necessarily Mourinho's fault. However, I do want to see him doing better than he did at United and look like he can see the good, the bad and the ugly and act accordingly.

    Currently, I'm not seeing the manager he used to be, he's regressing into his United phase in Season 3 and playing back three's that don't work and falling back to defend deep, when your defence is shot, isn't something that I get either. Pick 3 in midfield with some atleticism - maybe Skipp, Lo Celso and Gedson and defend a bit further up the pitch?
     
    #373
  14. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard it's SPURS

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    I think there lies a problem though, just who is positionally disciplined? On paper we'd say Jan and Toby but they've been so poor it's hard to watch. Being a tighter unit is what we all want but actually making that seems impossible, whether it's a back four or a back five it still leaks in goals.

    Against Chelsea the other week Jose probably fielded his most defensive line up since joining. Back five of the three main CBs, a CB at RB and a defensive LB on the other side. Add in we had three CMs too with Tanguy, Gio and Winks, it left just two attackers up top in Bergwijn and Lucas. We still conceded one of sloppiest goals imaginable, Toby gets outpaced by Giroud and then Jan embarrassingly bottles the block on the rebound. I'm just not sure how Jose can get any better from that when experienced players like this in a defensive line up are cocking up like they have. Against Wolves we went with five again but Aurier back at RB with Tanganga moving inwards with Dier and Sanchez and yet again it just leaked in goals.

    As crazy as it is, Aurier is actually one of our better players this season, especially under Jose. For sure, his style leaves us open but without him we'd have struggled up top as he has been very impressive on the front foot. He's not been worse than Toby, Jan, Davies, Winks, Dier, Dele, Ndombele, Lamela and Lucas this season. We still absolutely need an upgrade at RB in the summer but the sad reality is, at least for me, Aurier has been far from the worst player at Tottenham this season, even if he is still pretty shocking. A solid DM like Wanyama/ Dier in their prime may have actually made him look a lot better too, when Walker would bomb up the pitch one of those would usually drop deeper to cover, we haven't had that this season so when Aurier bombs forward it leaves the gaping hole behind. Also hasn't helped that our CBs are generally dreadful too. When Trent or Robertson bomb forward for Pool they probably feel safe knowing van Dijk and Gomez aided by Fabinho are there to cover them.

    CL died for me before Poch was sacked, 11 or 12 points adrift and we'd been stuffed by Bayern and Brighton and hadn't played a good game other than Palace. Jose restored a bit of hope but then the Son injury on top of Kane's just killed that bit of hope instantly.

    I don't think he is regressing or showing signs of his Utd meltdown, I just think he's trying to get the best out of largely a bunch of **** and no matter where he turns he's finding problems. Up until the recent defeats without Son, he'd picked up the third most points in the Prem since joining Spurs, I think he still has it in him but he must have his own players going forward. Levy needs to back him substantially, he'd need to back whoever the manager was but if you're hiring Jose Mourinho you need to give him the funds so he can build what we hope will be a trophy winning side.
     
    #374
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  15. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Honest question to those who think I am jumping the gun on Jose...

    Did you understand the decision to play Vorm before kick off?

    I posted before kick off when I got to the ground that it "was a weird team selection"...mainly cos of Vorm playing.
    He ain't played a first team match in over a year...and it showed...he nearly let one in throw his hsnds in the first half...it looked like an unnecessary risk before kick off and proved to be so.
    Surely that is all on the managers decision to play our THIRD choice keeper in such a key match.
    Vorm only returned cos Lloris was injured in October after we let him go in the summer...cos he weren't considered good enough for the club.

    Jose NEVER took pointless risks like this elsewhere so what was the point of such an unnecessary risk.

    Am so so frustrated that we have throw away a chance of getting to the 1/4 finals.
     
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  16. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard it's SPURS

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    Yeah he ****ed it with that decision, can’t defend that. Gazza was on the bench so not as if he was injured. Zero logic behind that one I’m afraid.

    It’s up there with Poch playing Son at LWB.

    Starting to think there’s something at Spurs that causes managers to make daft decisions at unnecessary moments.
     
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  17. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Genuinely made no sense to me ... assumed Gazzanigga was injured until I saw him warming up <steam>
     
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  18. Spurlock

    Spurlock Homeboy

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    I think it’s the realisation that they aren’t getting backed so start trying different things and it’s no surprise the oddest things are tried in the cups.

    We have all questioned Gazza...he’s had a prolonged chance and hasn’t really impressed. So he gave the 3rd choice a go in a game you’d think he would cope in.

    Wether he’s played in 17 months or not...that shot was bread and butter in training all day long.

    Personally I don’t think Jose can win...I’ve seen it before...when the fan base have it in for the manager then he’s ****ed.

    Hopefully they will all STFU about Parrot for a few weeks now
     
    #378
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  19. BobbyD

    BobbyD Patient Zero

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    Its true. Mourinho would have to win the league for the base to unite around him. Cause hes mourinho he only needs a bad run irrespective of the circumstances for the crowd to go against him.
     
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  20. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I can see why Levy appointed Mourinho and while he is our manager he will have my support, but he is only doing an average job.

    Something had gone wrong with the squad before he arrived and I expected him to get the squad over that and playing like they were a while ago. In practice the only players who have improved are Dele and Aurier. Dele is getting unreasonable stick from the fans. In the last few matches he has been in the main striker role and doing it adequately well. Against Wolves he had the assists for both goals and against Norwich he tied up a lot of their players who resorted to fouling him. He also got into a great goalscoring position only for Lucas not to spot him.

    We've signed about £250m worth of players in the last two windows....but so far only Lo Celso looks like the real deal. Ndombele looks brilliant but fragile, Fernandes and Bergwijn show promise and Sessegnon and Clarke are unknown quantities.
     
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